K20A TYPE R 91 3rd GEN

[Bob]

I aplaud enthusiasm and new things, but bing informed and doing some homework will save you some pain.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...9&postcount=84

To whom it may concern...judging by the fact of what this conversation of the swap has turned into (an argument about variable valvetrain systems). This is just a reply and update from the "builder" himself. I got on here and read all the different comments and questions about this swap. So I figured that maybe I could answere some of this questions as best as I could and just give you an update on what I've been working on.
Lemmie start off by first saying that Diegoaccord is not the builder of this project, I am. They call me Del, hence the username VtecDelNY...I'm originally from New York, where I took some engineering classes for a year- than decided to go to Wyoming and attend Wyotech. An automotive engineering technology institute. There I studied basic automotive, which included everything from engines,electrical system,drivetrain to chassis and suspensoins. From there I continued on to take their High performemance engines class and Chassis fabrication. All this along with a management degree course that was offered. Upon graduating I began working for BMW and been there since. That has been my day job, but I've always messed around with Honda's-I have only owned Honda's and yes my first car was a 3rd gen lude (which I still got). I've done plenty of Honda build ups, even quit BMW for 6 months to modify honda's...but work wasn't as steady. So I went back to BMW and just work on Honda's on my spare time.
For the people that said "it can't be done," "it's just sitting there for a picture," or those that asked "why?"......don't doubt me! I've got the brains,the knowledge,the know how,the experience and the resources to do a custom swap such as this.
I've had my 3rd gen since '98, and just like everyone here, I think it's the best year/chassis lude that was made, and see so much potental and beauty in them if done right. Always wished that more could be done to them..engine wise..
My originall intentions were to swap the H22 in it, than I got urge to do the whole Vtec head on our b20 block (ludespeed project...anyone remember??) Then I came across the K20, nice/new engine-something different, so I decided to mock it up.
This is where some of your questions can be answered. First of all no, it was never completed. and here are some reasons why...
lemmie start with some of the pros on doing this swap. The engine is far superior than the B series and H series. It's new technology, forget the question "is it lighter than the H22?" the K20 is lighter than a b20 by 20%. It response to mods like no other honda engine, bigger gains in hp from same mods comopared to other series. better valvtrain set up and much, much more. this could be a whole nother subject. As far as the mounting location goes, the chassis mounts were almost dead on the motor/tranny mounts. the locations are not far off at all, along with that-the shifter cables sat exactly where they needed to be attached to on the tranny. also, plenty of room for turbo and water/air IC if you wanted boost. with no signs of a front mount, no one would ever know what just smoked them.
and now, the reasons why this swap wasn't completed. the K is a little bit taller than the b and H. The hood was hitting the vacume nipple for the brake booster, even if that was removed and relocted you still got ground clearance issues to deal with. whether the engine was straight up or tilted back the oil pan sat real low.not a good thing. I was able to locate a dry sump set up from a co. in england -cuz no1 produced any here at the time- but then i noticed that the tranny would still sit just as low to the ground. the hubs were not perfectly aligned either, the differential area of the tranny would not come back far enough to line up with the hubs. I spoke to the people at raxles, who were gonna make the axles, and they gave me specs on that situation which were still with in a workable/doable range. but as far back as I had to get it, some of the subframe (where the rear mount is) had to get trimmed. no big deal, until the area of the subframe that houses the steering box had to get cut out, just to try to get the tranny back. that was another thing i didn't like, the tranny was bassically hitting the steering box. these are some of the things that have to be worked around when doing this swap. all this and at the same time the engine was sold to a cust, which is the one that went into the crx with the rsx dash and boosted on 9lbs...sick car!!by the way. the wirring would have been the easy part.
my intensions were to install the k20, make mounts and jumper harnnesses for the 3rd gen community out there. best of both worlds, awsome car with new tech engine. I was curious if people would go for something like that??
But i've gone back to the Vtec head project, which i have already started, and i know that this might be easier than the K20 swap...since the original block is being utilized. I was wondering if 3rd gen owners would be interested in doing such a swap. If I were to pick up where Tom of Ludespeed left off, would this be something you guys out there would be willing to do?? Lemmie know, give me some feedback. Just for your information, I have already started this project for my personal vehicle (test car) I've already got the gasket made and figured out the rest, so it'll be done atleast on my lude, but what I'm trying to get at is that this could give us another option. just like Tom had originally intended. I've tried to contact Tom, but had no luck, so I decided to take this project into my own hands.
What do the 3rd gen Prelude owners think???

[WEAPON-R]

Thats a real good read Bob!! Just a few things that people dont think of or see from a builder's/ engineers point of view. Again the cost of labour and research time would be stupid $$

[Sean628]

Just get a modified hood and it'll solve most of the prob
sth like this:

[RustyBit]

I aplaud enthusiasm and new things, but bing informed and doing some homework will save you some pain.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...9&postcount=84

Hi Bob, I appreciate your input, but I think he maybe he got the 20/24 confused, or he was measuring a K20 with steel sump, ITR&CTR K20's are very close to a dry sump arrangement to start with. also I do prefer positive input, I'm not into negative vibes this year. My engineer for VASS is dropping a k24 into his CRX, they are approx 22mm taller than a K20, similar to the B18/B20. If you think I haven't, think again, I spent countless hours measuring etc. The vacuum nipple for the brake booster was hitting the hood???? Strange as it is way below the top of the rocker cover!! The oil pan sat real low, it's much higher than a H22. Old inaccurate info! If people can stuff a boat anchor in the front of a 3G, then the world is my oyster. The biggest hurdle is going to be the headers clearing the 4WS rack. Anyhow I am going ahead, I have both a K20A2 and a K20Z4 to work with, enjoy the build thread, who knows you may still have the last laugh, not, I hope.

Thats a real good read Bob!! Just a few things that people dont think of or see from a builder's/ engineers point of view. Again the cost of labour and research time would be stupid $$

If you say so! And you mean you haven't read it before?

Just get a modified hood and it'll solve most of the prob
sth like this:

Hey Sean, where you been, I have plans for the hood, but not for that reason.

Cheers Rusty

[Daugaard]

Any updates for us?

[Si_4ws]

Good luck with the project, hope it works out. I do have to ask though, any reason you are going k20 rather than boosted b20a?

[1funryd]

I hope you figure this out, because that is the old post of why the K20 would not work.

There was another member on preludepower who ended up coming to me for the H22 kit in the end after he did what you did and purchased a K20a for cheap with tranny and was not able to solve the rear subframe issue which is still the biggest challenge.

The hood is still an issue because you would need to make a custom hood or cut the hood to allow for the engine to pop through because it is much taller than the H22, that is not old information unless Honda decided to redo the entire block from top to bottom without informing the general public.

It was never said that the swap was not doable, it was stated that it is not for an average swapper because of all the sacrifices and custom work that is involved in just getting the axle and hubs to line up.

I have been researching this swap longer than anyone has, and the bottom line is while it can be done with a decent fabricator its not going to be a Prelude by the time you finished customizing everything you will need to do when done.

Hell I can have this swap done and be finished and working, but its not going to be the way I want my lude and there will be no going back after you cut and weld whats needed to do it.

My ultimate solution is fabricating a custom tube rear subframe, and then custom hood with a hump. But just the cost of those two items alone will be more than the entire chassis.

That does not take into account the custom mounts. My rough estimate when discussing this with my old fabricators where around $2350 and that was for: Mounts, rear subframe, and hood. That did not include the engine and tranny, ECU, engine harness or axles.

But do not take my post as a negative comment, its more of what you will have to end up doing to get it done.

If you can do this, then please do this, I am not able to convince my partners to do this project due to the costs and no profit from it.

But as a personal project this will be doable for someone with fabrication skills and know how.

[RustyBit]

Hi Sean, all I can say is that I will give it my best shot. My biggest problem at the moment is time, I am currently rebuilding my 88 after it was stolen by some crack heads. This one has always fought me, all the way, everything leads to something else. Plus my VFR1200 is slowly going back together after a full custom rework. I have the skills needed, if I don't I will learn another skill or two, always willing to learn.

Cheers Rusty

[RustyBit]

Thanks, so do I, not into boosted over VTEC, yet.........!

[RustyBit]

Any updates for us?

Sorry not yet, main problem is time, start of the year issues at school etc. Plus my 88 is still giving me grief.

Cheers Rusty

[Flipmods]

Go for it, good luck!
Met some guy the other day after seeing my Lude that recons he put a small block V8 in his mates 3rd gen and a Corvette rear end, I said that was in the US but he said it was just a few suburbs away, but the car still looks stock for now. He asked me to contact his mate to swap ideas as his mate wants to do a few mods that I had already done like wide body. He said anything is possible if you really want it and he had a Lotus engine in his swift. I will believe it when I see it for myself though.

How about Vtec turbo? Pgvtecs old car is on gumtree now.

[Sean628]

probably less headache make it rwd I guess

[VCobra]

mmmmmm VTEC Turbo... don't give me ideas boys.

And yeah, good luck with the build mate, hope you pull it off.

[Daugaard]

Any news?

[MugenMachina]

found this floating on facebook. Dont know too much about it.




https://www.facebook.com/14926659514...type=3&theater